"Blood is not water" - true for Arbëresh people in Argentina

"There is an Albanian saying: 'Blood is not water'. So that saying is true. Here it is valued as true. We are your brothers who many, many years ago we went to a distant country, but we continue to be your brothers", says Alejandro Greco, the Orthodox metropolitan bishop of the Albanians in Argentina. In an interview in Buenos Aires, he talks about the presence of Arbërs and Albanians there, about efforts to preserve and teach Albanian, about prominent Arbërs and Albanian figures.

When Italian emigration to Latin America began in the late XNUMXth and early XNUMXth centuries, quite a few Arber women from Italy arrived and settled in Argentina. Even though over the years the preservation of identity had become much more difficult, the Arber community in Argentina, as well as in some other South American countries, continues to preserve Arber traditions and culture with great difficulty.

Much has been said about the presence of this community, and among the most prominent personalities who have also publicly spoken about their origins is the world-famous writer, Ernesto Sabato. Apart from him, even today, many important figures of public life in Argentina have Arbër origin.

However, today, it is quite challenging for the new generations to preserve their identity. Monsignor Alejandro Greco is one of the personalities who is very diligently promoting the identity of Arbers and Albanians in South America. A feature that has caught the eye in the last period is related to its presentation. In each appearance, especially on social networks, he carries the scarf with the Albanian national symbols, and also the national flag.

In an interview conducted during a meeting in Buenos Aires, in December 2019, Monsignor Alejandro Greco, after explaining the origin of his ancestors and his arrival in Argentina, very passionately emphasizes his love for Albania and Kosovo. He had visited Albania only once. His dream remains a visit to Kosovo.

Monsignor Alejandro underlines the need for help from the mother countries to preserve the identity, which every day is becoming more difficult for the new generations.

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KOHA: Monsignor Alejandro, thank you for your interview and can you give us an introduction?

Greco: Thankful I am! I am Alejandro, in Spanish, Monsignor Aleksandër, the Orthodox Metropolitan Bishop of the Albanians in Diaspora. Our metropolitan church was founded by Monsignor Fan Noli, in the USA. He has ordained bishops who have continued to ordain others later, and who have also ordained me. Our history is relatively new as an organization, although it has already been 20 years of engagement in South America, because we do not only cover Argentina, but also small communities in other countries, especially in Brazil. But also in Uruguay and Chile, more or less organized.

The "Albania" house in Buenos Aires

KOHA: So there are Albanian communities in Brazil...

Greco: Yeah a lot...

KOHA: And in Uruguay, so not only in Argentina...

Greco: Not only in Argentina. Especially in Argentina we have. In different periods of history, Arbëresh communities have arrived since the 1800s along with Italian immigration. The Arber community from the South of Italy has come to Argentina at different times, at different times. Also, as I told Lekë, there has been direct emigration from Albania. People who came directly from Albania, mainly in the 20s and mid-20s, after the declaration of independence. When there were wars, before the world wars, the times between the two wars, there was emigration. Most of those who came are no longer there, but are their children and grandchildren.

Here there are various organizations with which we cooperate, with which we have joint activity and cooperation, whether from Arbere or Albanian. Here in Buenos Aires, that is, in this region, there is an association "Scanderbeg", founded by Albanians who came from Albania many, many years ago. I found a house here in Buenos Aires called "Albania" and I found a plaque in that house that said 1600 or something, so a long time ago.

Also, there is a community in Veliso, which is a province in Buenos Aires, so it is the region and not the capital. From here to the capital is 2 hours away. There is an Albanian community formed by families who came from Albania and there are many good and beautiful people - most of them are young. There are many young people there, they even have an Albanian dance ensemble.

"Last year's queen of dancing in Buenos Aires was a representative of the Albanian troupe. Then, in Lujan, in Mendosa... Mendosa is another province. In the south there are also communities of Arberian origin."

 

More or less organized. The community in Lujan is organized, although most are children of Arbëresh residents. It is also a very charming, quite active community, and that is how we are developing step by step.

As a church, we are a typical Orthodox church. So we, as I told you Leka, we have contacts with other churches and other religions. Here in Argentina religious problems are something that is not known, nobody has any idea what the discussion between religions is like. We have very good relations with the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Church, with other religions, such as the Muslim and Jewish communities.

The important thing is to find the things that unite us and not those that divide us.

"For example, in South America, especially in Argentina, for example, there are many Albanian residents of different religions. But we work together and have friendship."

 

Because who does not know, cannot love. When you don't know the other, you can't build anything. But when they are known then they are personal relationships and what unites us is found and not what can divide us.

"We have continuity from Fan Noli and we also have Albanian blood"

KOHA: This is generally for the Albanian and Arbëresh community here. The second question is for you personally. Who are you and some details about your family please? So mother and father, where did they come from, when, and more...

Greco: So, as I told you, I am the archbishop of the Albanian Orthodox Church in the diaspora, mainly in Argentina, where we are now. We do not have an institutional line with the Orthodox Church in Albania, we are semi-independent, we are formed by bishops, we have continuity from Fan Noli and we also have Albanian blood. We respect everyone, we pray for everyone, but we enjoy independence. Our role as a church is not only on the evangelical side, that is, in the religious aspect, but also to preserve our Albanian roots in some form. Many people here knew that they are of Albanian origin, but they did not know many things, they knew something about their grandfather or father... This is also our activity, to know our roots in Albania, the Albanian culture, the history that it is very rich, thousands of years old, historical personalities... I will repeat what I said a few moments ago: If we don't know each other, we can't need each other.

"We have lost a lot of language here. It is difficult to find someone who speaks Albanian well."

 

But, we are learning it a lot, mostly by ourselves, since there is no one to teach it. But the goal is that we can talk about it in the future. Let's speak it fluently and calmly, especially since some parts of the prayers in the church are in Albanian, serving of course also in Spanish, because that's what most people here speak. But, appreciating and restoring our language. In your question Lek...

TIME: For the origin...

Greco: About the origin... My father is from a place in the south of Calabria, which is called San Benedetto Ullano. They came here in 1950, after the end of the Second World War. So, other members of my family have also come, aunts, cousins, etc. And they are initially located in the Buenos Aires area. My paternal grandmother is Musachio–Muzaka, an Albanian surname with a history in Albania. We are descendants of the historic Muzaka family. And for this reason, I personally, even more so because of religion, have inherited it. I am a professor of theology and history. For this reason I was also interested in discovering the roots. Here we do everything in the religious field, community engagement and others, we also have civil workplaces. Our church is supported by contributions which we give from the income from our civil affairs. And we are proud, because this also gives us great independence. Okay, to go back to my family history, my father spoke Albanian perfectly. He learned in Italian, at school, during the Mussolini period, so they were obliged, as the language of the state.

KOHA: But did your father speak Albanian or Arabic?

Greco: He spoke Arabic.

TIME: Not today's Albanian.

Greco: Not the actual Albanian of Albania. He spoke Arabic. For example, when I went to Albania and was hungry, I knew in Arabic that it was said: "Mother, let's eat". I remember that when I was in Albania, in Arabic "I'm hungry" was said "mom let's eat". And in Albania I used to say "let's eat" and no one understood what I was saying. I had the chance to visit Albania in 2014 and I wanted to visit Kosovo as well, because I was 150 kilometers away. But I was there for a few days, actually an Albanian friend of mine brought me from Italy, so he lived in Italy. From the non-arbëresh Albanian community in Italy, where we also have a significant presence, we have believers and many friends within the Albanian community in Italy. I wanted to say to Leka that over time we have found the children of my cousins, my uncles, people of the same people who have come, as we say, compatriots. And we have found a large number of people with whom we have Albanian origins, Albanian blood. I believe that sometimes, as in Kosovo, as in Albania, the size of immigration to South America with Albanian blood is not known. There are thousands of us.

TIME: Why does this happen monsignor?

Greco: Because, like the USA in the North, the big countries in the South, like Brazil and Argentina, were developed countries, but very open to immigration. So let's say that it was seen as an opportunity by immigrants to come here. But, I repeat, this was not just one time. There were certain stages, in certain periods of Argentina. For example, in the 20s, Argentina was a very rich country, very developed and offered many opportunities. And here the phenomenon has always developed in the same way. One or two families came and then the family that was in Albania or Kosovo connected with someone here, and then they came... Do you understand?

In the footsteps of the first arborist in Argentina

TIME: Yes.

Greco: They also went to other European countries. But they came here as a place of opportunity. It was a new country, a place of opportunity, with a much better economy than we have now... But that's another topic.

KOHA: So, Monsignor Aleksandër, do you know when the first Albanian or Arbëresh arrived in the countries of South America?

Greco: I would say in the latter part of the 1800s. Coinciding with the period when President Sarmiento was in the 1800s, he gave land to those who wanted to work, he forgave the land for the population of the state. Even now, Argentina is a very large country, with a lot of land and we do not have that many inhabitants. For example, we have miles of fields. I'm researching to figure out who could have been first, but I haven't found out yet. However, the first emigration was with Arber women from Italy. From the south, but also from the north, because there is also an Arber presence in the north. The biggest presence is in the south, but there are Arberian communities all along the coast of the Adriatic, and this can be seen from the language, because there are Arbeian-speaking communities in the north of Italy as well. They are not as big as in the south, where the majority is.

"With concern and solidarity, the whole issue of Kosovo's independence was conveyed. Because Kosovo is Albania. It's the same blood"

Rediscovering the language of history

TIME: I have been near Naples and Rome. It's a small town, it's called Greci.

Greco: There is a lot of confusion, because there are often cases when people think they speak Greek, but in fact they speak Albanian. Do you understand where I want to go? For example, "Piana degli Albanesi" was earlier called "Piana degli Greci". And they were thought to be descendants of the Greeks, no. It was confused with the Byzantine rite. The Byzantine Rite was called the "Greek Rite" in the West, but it is actually a Rite in many ways. It is in Antioch in Syria, in Alexandria in Egypt, in Russia. Also, it is the opinion that the Greeks themselves, before the Greek Republic, or a little later, were not called Greeks, but called Hellenes - the Hellenic people. There is a large Greek community here, it is an organized community for years. Onassis is thought to have lived here when he was not rich. But there is also a large community, not so organized in the same monolithic form - but they are also looking for different forms of organization, looking for more suitable forms even to this day - of Albanian origin. For this reason, as well, the entire issue of Kosovo's independence has been followed here with concern and solidarity. It was something we were very interested in. Because Kosovo is Albania. It's the same blood.

There is an Albanian saying: "Blood is not water". So that saying is true. Here it is valued as true. We are your brothers who many, many years ago we went to a distant land, but we continue to be your brothers. We are rediscovering language and in a way I believe we are rediscovering history. Distant history, such as Skanderbeg, the whole process. The glorious process of independence and liberation of Kosovo. They are part of our interest. Not only as institutions, but also personally. It is interesting that among the preserved things are customs, that is, apart from language. Customs such as dances and cooking, which are quite rich among Albanians, and which have been preserved in certain communities. In a form as if they were canned. As I mentioned, in Beriso it is an important and well-known ensemble, so it is not only that it does an activity once a year, but it is also invited to different places. It is an Albanian ensemble of Albanian dances and songs, which was formed for young people, i.e. between 18-30 years old. So there are people who love the roots.

KOHA: And precisely for this, how is the inclusion in public life in South America, in Argentina and other countries of the Arber community and the Albanian community?

Greco: First I would like to mention a small division, so that it is understood. There have been prominent personalities of Albanian or Albanian origin in the history of Argentina.

The Arberian roots of Sabato and President Miter

TIME: Like, for example, Ernesto Sabato.

Greco: Ernesto Sabato, the writer. A great writer, whom I had the chance to know. Much before him, there was a president named Sarmiento. Before Sarmientos there was a president named Miter.

TIME: Was Sarmiento an arborist?

Greco: No no. Miter was originally from what is the Chamber. Mitra's grandfather...

TIME: Chamber...

Greco: The chamber. Mitra's grandfather. He was the "infamous" president of Argentina, a very "cult", important man. Unfortunately you will be leaving now because we were going to visit one of his monuments. There are many streets and avenues that bear Mitre's name. This is one of the main historical cases that we know of the presence of Albanian origin in Argentina. There are many others. Well, we mentioned Ernesto Sabato, a very famous world-class writer and a name very much associated with human rights, who has had a big role in the civil-military process here, to help restore democracy in Argentina. Let's go back to something more popular at the moment... The footballer in Italy, Muzacchio is of Arbere origin. Such an adjective. Muzacchio is Italian for Muzaka. It's the same family.

TIME: Muzacchio there is here Muzaka. What about Messi?

Greco: There are some who are said to be.

TIME: Is it the middle?

Greco: For Messi, it is said that his mother is of Arbëre origin.

KOHA: And what is her name?

Greco: I dont remember. From my mother's family, I do not remember the last name of the family. I know that I have been and once celebrated a liturgy, a mass... In church language it is called a divine liturgy, in Rosario, where Messi is from. And where there is a presence of Albanian origin, but they are not organized. And I was told that it was Messi's mother, but there were many people, so I couldn't talk.

"For me, Messi's mother is an Arber woman"

KOHA: But, for you, Messi's mother is from Arbere?

"For me, Messi's mother from all that I have been told..."

 

KOHA: So, Messi is partly...

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Greco: Correct.

KOHA: What about others?

Greco: Yes there are...

TIME: Just this. What is the importance of Ernesto Sabato in this process after the Junta?

Greco: Ernesto Sabato, after the advent of democracy, was one of the moral and official references in all trials for crimes committed during that period. That whole period in Argentina is still very complicated to this day. It came from a government that included the suppression of democracy, the disappearance of persons - "AAA" - and military power... 300.000 disappeared were documented. It later caused convulsions. Numerous investigations were carried out to find those responsible. Sabato was one of those who pushed this forward. But, the important thing is that it was also a moral reference, a credible person for people. People respected him for his opinions as a person. Even more so, a well-known writer. A really interesting person. His books are also read in schools.

"The Albanian presence is in places where we don't know why"

KOHA: What is the contribution of these personalities of Arberian origin to the preservation of Arberian culture in Argentina? For example, Ernesto Sabato wrote in Albanian, or did he not know?

Greco: I believe he knew Albanian.

KOHA: But, did he know that he is an arborist?

Greco: Yes.

KOHA: And he said this in public here?

Greco: Yes.

"I know people who knew him a lot and said that he was fully aware that his family came from Italy and had Albanian origins."

 

Do you understand me? So, he knew and said it.

KOHA: So he was from Arbër, not an Albanian from Albania?

Greco: He was an arborist. Then, we had an important judge in Argentina's justice, Belushi. So, Belushi is Albanian. And when they told him if he was Italian, he said: "I am Albanian".

TIME: Who was he?

Greco: An equally well-known judge.

TIME: Belushi, like Jim and John Belushi?

Greco: Exactly, same. Not as famous as them, but important for Argentina. Court in the Supreme Court. Docent of law.

KOHA: And others from today? Not only athletes, like Muzacchio or partially Messi, but others? Artists?

Greco: Okay, artists: Graciela Alfano, Amalia Granata... Two personalities that no one knows are of Arbëre origin, I don't know if you know, but that I have participated in, where do Arbëresh Albanians come from, with adjectives are the same. There are two figures of Argentine tango, one is Pugliese and the other is Troilo.

TIME: Pugliese from Puglia?

Greco: Yes, but there are many Pugliese in the arborist community in Italy and there are also many Troilos. Troilo is an accordionist. But they are very important figures that we followed in the 70s of tango. Later there are also many artists, as I mentioned, Graciela Alfano, an actress. Amalia Granata, who is now a deputy from the party in her province, who is also a leader, a model... In the neighboring country, which is Chile, Graciela Boloko of Arber origin.

KOHA: So, not only in Argentina, but also in Brazil, in Chile, in Uruguay...

Greco: I'm sure there is, because people have contacted me. I think that in one part of Brazil, above all, there are more organized communities. But I still haven't been able to contact them.

TIME: Where?

Greco: Brazil is huge.

TIME: Good, but close to Rio, Brazil or Sao Paolo...

Greco: According to me south and further north of Rio. More northeast of Brazil. Not completely up. And also in Chile. In Santiago, Chile, including where we work together, where we are trying to maintain a more stable presence, taking into account the socio-political circumstances, which are very difficult in this period in Chile. I have visited them, I don't know how many times, but also to socialize a little. There is a presence, yes. Above all arboretum. But, in the south of Chile, in the very south, there is a city where the streets are called Durrës, Tirana, names of cities in general of Albanians, so a large part of the streets. This speaks of a very important presence as long as a street is named. I still haven't managed to get there, so Lekë, as we talked about, the distances here are terrible. I can spend two days traveling and still be inside Argentina. Consider traveling to Chile, because this city is still located in the very south of Chile. Once on social networks they commented to me: "Ah, why don't you go?" and the like... It's not easy for us. I was impressed in Europe - everything was close. They told me no, it is 4-5 hours away and I was going to that place. They looked at me and said "How?"... I told them: "But, for me it is close". In this city it can take me two hours to get anywhere. The distance here is very big. And, as I told you Leka, at the southernmost point of the American continent, as we call it "Tierra del Fuego" (Land of Fire), or say at the end of the world, at the Antarctic, where it is very cold and where for months it is only days and for months it is only night, there is a stream, a small river, where Kosovo is officially written on the map. We would like it to be called Kosovo, but that is a matter for the municipality or the government in that country. Therefore, the Albanian presence is in places where we do not know why. I can say the same, during the liberation war of Kosovo, the owners of those lands are of Albanian blood. I don't know if directly Albanians or Arberes, I don't know. They didn't live there. They are pastures. They are where the sheep and goats are kept.

TIME: We have many things to talk about... If it were possible, for whole days. But we are getting closer to the end. My last question, or not exactly the last... For today, in the 21st century, how is it possible to not only preserve... So, the new generations in order to write Albanian, speak a little Albanian, what do you need from Kosovo and Albania... Books, language courses, teachers?

Greco: As a first step, let's say the elementary things. When I was in Albania, a personal friend of mine brought me a Spanish-Albanian language dictionary. The problem would be to have an Albanian-Spanish, the opposite - it would be more difficult. And Google translators are very... My publications take me several hours to write. Therefore, we would need elementary things like dictionaries, and also if it were possible any course, which would not be Albanian-Spanish, it could be Albanian-Italian, which is a language which is a little do they understand a lot, like for example if I go out on the street to speak Italian they understand me enough. English is also well understood here, it is spoken a lot. Not in my case. But there would also be a moment when a professor would come or one of us would travel to perfect the language. I understand Portuguese and Italian completely.

KOHA: But do you need Albanian language courses or teachers to come?

Greco: Teacher would be the second plan. We would have to organize and Lekë knows that these times are moments of change in Argentina. Therefore, we must see this year how the socio-economic situation will be in Argentina, so that if a person comes, we can find a house for him, so that he will be fine here. I repeat, one disadvantage here is the distances, because one community may be here, but the other 2-3 hours away.

TIME: Not practical.

Greco: To make it practical, new technology is also needed. It helps a lot with that.

KOHA: Where does the largest Albanian or Arber community live in Argentina?

Greco: There is a saying here: "God is everywhere, but he works in Buenos Aires". Buenos Aires, where there is also the province of Buenos Aires, has a significant Albanian and Albanian presence.

KOHA: And you within the community, in the church maybe yes or no, but within the community is Arabic or Spanish spoken?

Greco: They know how to speak Arabic at an older age, as my father spoke and wrote it perfectly. But also, as happened in other European countries, they were immigrants. Therefore, they went out to work in the morning and returned at night. Most have had a good, economically stable position. But they have sacrificed a lot. They didn't have something systematic in order to hold back. In Argentine schools, one or two languages ​​are taught. With priority English, for me not, and French. Therefore, in addition to their own language, they had to learn one or two more languages. Therefore, all this was complicated. I think that our young people, especially those who have passed the age of 18, but also the older ones, should learn to understand the language. It's something that in general we talk about, we should do it in a more organized way. To write and to communicate as well. But, Lekë, when we talk about language, I think we should talk about the whole culture. The cultural phenomenon. Language is the most important, it is fundamental. But it is also fundamental to know history, and I am not just saying this as a professor of history - the customs and traditions of our countries of origin must be known even today. Not only the things that have passed, they are fantastic and I believe that they are the basis of everything, the roots. But we also need to know and communicate with people today, with their problems, with their dreams, desires, ideals and also to see the opportunities to contribute to our country of origin, our blood. I think we can make a big contribution, modestly, at least in Argentina... Brazil has it too, we are very welcoming communities - we celebrate friendship.

And we are – I'm not talking about football – very pluralistic. As I told you, Leka, discussing religion here is like discussing Martians. There is a lot to discuss about politics here. There is a divide that I hope is closed. Football is also discussed. But there is like a cult of friendship.

KOHA: Are you with Boca or River Platen?

Greco: I reserve my opinion. But, I have a sincere sympathy for River. However, I have family members with Boca. Sisters, nephews, etc.

TIME: So you were confused...

Greco: Yes.

KOHA: Thank you very much!

Greco: No, thank you Leka for coming! Since it's the first time, I hope it won't be the last. I hope that soon we will welcome you again and introduce you to other members of the community.

TIME: Thank you!

Connection with Fan Noli

KOHA: What is your relationship with Fan Noli?

Greco: In theological terminology, we call it the apostolic succession.

So from the apostles here, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church as well... Let's say we came from the apostles. So it's a list, this bishop followed this bishop, and so on, and on my list is Fan Noli. Fan Noli, we know that he was a great personality, with a unique culture, he translated Shakespeare, he translated religious books, he translated "Don Quixote" by Cervantes, I discovered that he knew Spanish. He spoke many languages, held high positions, and also organized the Orthodox Church in Albania. I am not saying that the church was born with Fan Noli, there have always been many figures...

KOHA: But, as a church...

Greco: But, not as a church...

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KOHA: And not in Albania... In Boston.

Greco: But, with Albanian immigration. So, the diaspora can make a great contribution. He was the first who celebrated Mass in Albanian, not in Greek. That's what we remember. It was a mass completely celebrated in Albanian. We believe that he was the first to translate it completely. But, we also have Melani, Pope Kristo, who also held mass in Albanian. But, it was a perfect, complete, translation of everything from Fan Noli. When I learned about his figure, before I became a bishop, I was fascinated. That's why we considered ourselves as his children. As a church, we are the fruit of Fan Noli in South America, in the Albanian diaspora of South America. I think we should recognize him here. Before we knew him less. On the other hand, his story should also be better known here among Albanians. We try to revive his ideals. As I said at the beginning, I respect all religious manifestations, I respect all churches, Greek, Serbian, Russian, all... But, we are Albanians and there must be an established church, not only established, but to have "seed" in our Albanian culture, so that it is possible to recognize our language and be a living, current and dynamic organism, to help different expressions. Not to dominate anyone, or to convert. I have great respect and tolerance. But for it to be alive for our people, for the members of our communities. And, above all, for the new generations, because it is always important to have continuity.