Albanian in the EU

Surroi: Hello. The edition of "PIKċA" starts a little differently, with a selected panel of friends and a different theme and narrative structure.

We speak Albanian for the European Union. We have guests, Lura Pollozhani, who in this case will represent North Macedonia, although she is also Kosovar, she recently came from Vienna to Pristina; Iliriana Gjoni, who is from Ulcinj, but comes from Brussels, directly from "Carnegie Europe", besides being interested and dedicated to integration politics, she is also an accomplished pianist and Ardian Hackaj from Tirana, director of CDI, economist, a man who also knows Kosovo, having been in the post-war years, in the international mission here in UNMIK.

Welcome!

We are starting to talk about the EU in Albanian, because we have four different trajectories, fate gave me the opportunity to host this show as a Kosovar, who represents a country that is not even a candidate state, therefore you will talk much more than I will, we will start with Iliriana. Iliriana, there is an almost common consensus in the EU, in the member states and in Montenegro, that Montenegro should be a member state in 2028, namely to fulfill, to complete the negotiations by 2028 and then be ready for ratification in the member states.

The biggest push has to do with Ukraine, it has to do with the fact that there has to be a success story. If Montenegro enters, one scenario: will it further open the way for other countries, or is the door closed there, along with Iceland? And vice versa, the alternative scenario, if Montenegro does not enter, because next year elections take place and consensus within Montenegrin society is lost and at the head of Montenegro, the only visible figure, becomes the Chetnik voivode, Mandić, can Montenegro enter this trajectory of the European Union?

John: First of all, I would like to say that I would like Montenegro's entry into the EU to be such a fait accompli. In fact, in Brussels, goodwill is needed most from the European Commission, which has often given quite courageous proposals to the political actors who are the ones who act on the issue of enlargement, whether in Brussels or in the member states. However, from time to time we have that "reality check", or we get some other answers perhaps from, especially from the Council, where all the states are represented, and then it seems that there is not so much unanimity and so much clarity yet that Montenegro should be the state that will be the next member. 

However, it should be noted that the good momentum for Montenegro exists, it is also evident from the fact that this group has now been formed for the signing of the accession treaty, news that has been extremely positive and also a release of that impasse that was not moving anything, and if Montenegro continues to work well and if lobbying is done, especially with the member states in the coming period, the chances are that this could happen, especially if Montenegro joins in a charter with Iceland. 

Then, if Montenegro really achieves this goal, first of all it would be a great success for the EU, which for many years, we have over thirteen years that we have not had... since Croatia we have not had that proof that the European Union really has transformative power in its vicinity, and first of all it would be good news for Brussels.

Then I believe that it will not be easier for other countries to join, but perhaps skepticism or voices that question the goodwill of the European Union in the region will be, will take a back seat and perhaps those who see this process as a credible process and which can really bring you to the position of a candidate member will come to the fore.

Surroi: In the current situation, it is expected. The news from the European Union and from Ukraine is that Ukraine does not have very great chances with that initial enthusiasm to be a member and this was the first push to push Montenegro, Albania, all the other subsequent countries away.
So, if Ukraine's integration is replaced with other easing measures, this means that the pressure will be pushed even further for Montenegro to be. So, it seems that the Commission's breakup of Montenegro is more convenient than the Montenegrins themselves.

John: I don't know what to say. The numbers are still pretty good even from the Montenegrin society's side. However, we have noticed a decline in support for the project of joining the European Union even from the Montenegrin society, however I believe that, regardless of all the internal problems, what is the major goal of the main political actors in the Montenegrin state, is now this fact.

Surroi: And institutional capacity as well.

John: Institutional capacity has its own problems. Montenegro is a small country, which has experienced a political change in recent years, institutional memory especially when I talk, with relevant people in different directorates, especially for example, because I recently spoke with those in climate, it seems that there are shortcomings in the way they are being treated, we need to have a job with human capacities, human resources need to be strengthened a lot.

There, when we talk about Albania, we will have the opportunity to say that Albania has a much greater agility from an administrative point of view. But society. Montenegrin society itself, being a smaller country, also having a kind of social control and I say this from my personal perspective, when I moved from a small country, such as Montenegro, even in Albania you notice that there is a greater freedom and, normally, that freedom sometimes comes with greater problems.
So I believe that Montenegro achieves some things from the fact that it is a small country and this is how the EU sees it. That this is a "net zero enlargement", which will cost the European citizen about twenty euro cents a year, nothing, and that the problems that Montenegro may bring, given that at the moment, no matter how complex the relationship between the different nationalities within it is, are still being managed in a stable way.

Surroi: Which means that at the current pace, it could happen that the first Albanian society to enter the European Union, we are excluding people who have gone to live in the European Union from the Albanian space in the Western Balkans, the first Albanian society to enter the European Union will be that of Montenegro.

John: Most likely. In fact, in my life, being a member of a minority people has never been an advantage, but now, being an Albanian from Montenegro, not only because I work at Carnegie Europe, but also because I am part of this community, I am often the first person in Brussels to be contacted to talk about the problems of both countries, and being a minority is becoming a kind of advantage for an Albanian in this process of expansion in Brussels.

Surroi: I wanted to move on to Ardiani, but I'm moving on to Lura first, because in 2001, after the armed conflict, after the war in Macedonia, after the Ohrid Agreement, I was a little involved in achieving peace, then Javier Solana, who was the first head of diplomacy of the European Union, had insisted that whatever the geopolitical circumstances, Macedonia, then the Republic of Macedonia, now North Macedonia, should be brought into the European Union as soon as possible. He was the biggest pusher. 

And at that time I thought that it would turn out that the first Albanian society to enter the European Union from this region would be Albanians in Macedonia. And despite the goodwill, the Stabilization and Association Agreement, the opening of negotiations as a candidate country, North Macedonia is where it is.
This means that the next step in the negotiation process does not mean a guarantee that this step will be concluded with membership. How does this reflect on Albanian society in Macedonia?

Pollozhani: I think the fact that 2001 is also connected to the journey of the European Union is...

Surroi: It's almost a quarter of a century now

Pollozhani: Yes, that's right.

But the fact that these two are connected is because I think that Solana understood very well at the time that social cohesion in Macedonia needed a different vision, and that vision at that time was the European Union.

The government, after the Ohrid Agreement, took accession to the European Union very seriously. And then we had the 2006 elections, when Radmila Shekerinska ran for prime minister. For me, there was a very big turning point, because we had the opportunity to have the first female prime minister, and I think we would have continued on the trajectory towards the European Union, but then the government changed and VMRO-DPMNE came in with a very nationalist platform as a reaction to all the reforms that had been made in favor of the integration of Albanians into society, among other things, which were also seen as conditional on the European Union.

So very often, especially among Macedonians in Macedonia, the European Union and the United States of America have been seen as partners of Albanians, because accession to the European Union has also had the significance of integrating Albanians as an aspect of human rights, the rights of other non-majority communities.

But Macedonia, unfortunately, has become this bad case of the region where we have this all the time, sometimes we say we have become so multipolar in personality, because sometimes we move forward and then we go back again. There were two very key moments for Macedonia after 2001, one is the 2008 Summit where they say no to accession to NATO, and then consequently, to the EU...

Surroi: Because of the name.

Pollozhani: Yes. And then there is 2019, where France says no, after Macedonia decides to change its name, a referendum is held, and it is also seen that the path to NATO was also opened, because in 2020 we officially entered, but the EU still said no. At that time, I was part of the Government, I worked in the government, and I remember how the entire administration was calm, after that French "no", because there was hope, but also sacrifices were made, with the name change, a great sacrifice by the leadership of the time and a sacrifice that was seen somewhat like the Ohrid Agreement in the eyes of Macedonian citizens, vis a vis their identity, so as a result, the EU in terms of domestic politics has become associated with some not very comfortable sacrifices that in the end are not even bringing results.

Surroi: As for its geopolitical relevance, if we start with Montenegro, it had geopolitical relevance because of Ukraine. North Macedonia had geopolitical relevance back then in 2001, but it has lost that for a quarter of a century. It has become geopolitically irrelevant.

So, you are relevant if you are a potential problem, and Macedonia is not, North Macedonia is not, which brings us to Albania, which had the biggest geopolitical problem in the 21st century with Ballist Morina in the Belgrade stadium.

This has been the biggest bilateral problem that Albania has had with the countries of the region, and yet in this quarter century Albania has been lumped into a group called the Western Balkans, the British have a much nicer name, "Eastern Adriatic", but the Western Balkans implies that there are some mutual problems, while Albania has no problems whatsoever with any of its neighbors.

Hack: It's one of the points that surprised me at first because I understood it, because Albania was put in the same group as the countries of the former Yugoslavia. We didn't have the same problems, with cooperation with our neighbors. Something else that caught my attention was the role of public enterprises in the economy. We didn't have public enterprises, because we destroyed them all in 1997.
So I didn't understand, until finally...

Surroi: Even institutions, with enterprises...

Hack: Unfortunately, we will also come to the institutions, because this also determines the starting point from which Albania started to reach where it is, where together with Montenegro, you are now a step ahead, which is wonderful and I hope that in 2028/2029, we will be, at least both countries, both together in the European Union.

Yes, this shows where Albania started, from a country that was super isolated, from a country that had a total destruction of institutions and almost socio-economic structure, yes economic yes yes, in 1997 from a very problematic initial image in Europe, from an almost complete lack of experience with the private economy, when you look at the point, when you look back and see where we have come from, the dynamics and acceleration of changes in Albania are truly radical.
It hasn't happened anywhere. The last illustration is the opening of 33 chapters within a year, a few years, so it hasn't happened...

Surroi: It indicates a negotiating capacity, not necessarily an implementing capacity.

Hack: Correct. We have had a negotiating team that has left a wonderful impression in Brussels so far, and here I would also like to quote Iliriana when she said that the Albanian administration is very agile. She is true. Our administration is very agile.
But, since we are, as you said, a Balkan country, we are actually, I like to call it a Mediterranean country.

Surroi: ...Kosovo is also Mediterranean, it will have the Mediterranean Games in 2030

Hack: Even the port, little by little, if everything is in order, a port with a sound, one of the ports or at least one of the piers of the new port, whenever it is built in Albania.

But what I want to say in this case is that Albania's starting point is much, much further behind. We started a lap behind all the other countries in the region. There has been an approach towards Albania that has been a bit, I would say, not properly adapted to the characteristics of the country, but, on the other hand, what has been surprising, if it can be explained, has been the passion and determination of the people, and also of the politicians in many cases, to approach the objective of membership in the European Union almost at any cost.

Surroi: Although it must be said that this was done through airport checking, and not necessarily with reforms in..., so we have more people going to Europe and living there than we have people transforming the country to enter the European Union.

Hack: For me too, this shows, always taking the positive side, this also shows the vitality of Albanians. There are two ways to change life: change the institutions in my country or change my life by joining the institutions of the country where I want to live, not only for a better salary, but for better health, for a better personal career, a better professional one...

Surroi: ...and this puts our societies and includes Kosovo there, because Kosovo, with this trend of depopulation, has the possibility, even with people leaving for the European Union for these reasons, that in 2030-2031 it will return to the number of inhabitants it had in 1971, and this is the biggest indicator of the integration race in the European Union.
Will you do it with your feet, or... will you do it with your vote?

Hack: It is true that sometimes we say that the people are moving towards the EU, while the political elites are failing to integrate. Perhaps this is one of these ideas that can be translated into this gradual integration that has emerged recently. The division into layers.

But what I have to say and I have to finish this first intervention a little is that Albania always surprises with the extremes of this, surprises from a super problematic country, to a country that until three or four months ago was the subject of admiration wherever it went, even we ourselves were surprised at what was happening in Albania, that we who are in Tirana do not know what is happening.

As it happens for good, it now also happens with some challenges. I believe, I hope that what is very important is that it is systemic, that the awareness of the population is always greater about the role and advantage that the European Union has.

The other point is that certain segments of the country are realizing that the closer we get to the European Union, the more we must obey European Union rules.

This may create some questionable moments of inhibition for these very small groups of people, but the overwhelming majority of the population, whether they are inside or in the diaspora, has set its own path.

Surroi: It goes without saying that it exists, in all surveys of all Albanian societies, integration with the EU is much higher.

Ethnically Albanians are the most pro-European today, I believe, based on these measurements. For the Western Balkans, yes, yes, and there may be for other countries as well. But, this does not necessarily translate into transformative policies that lead there and the question which..., Albania, if we were sitting down last year at this time to have this conversation, you would start the conversation with Iliriana and Ardian, Albania and Montenegro, Montenegro and Albania are ready to enter the European Union in a year or two, to conclude the negotiations. 

This conversation began with: "Iliriana Montenegro is starting, and Ardian, you will wait a little, you will wait a day."

Hack: No, Ardian, you need to hurry up a little, why are you so late?

Surroi: Yes, these delays, as we saw, that's why I mentioned Lura, you can be completely determined... in 2001 in North Macedonia, people thought that within ten years this process would be completed. If not, there were people who thought, even Solana, among others, thought that maybe Macedonia and Croatia could join the European Union together.

So these historical turns, once you take the turn, you don't know where it leads, it's like on the highway when you take the wrong road and then you have to find it again. 

But the question I want to ask you is that Albania has shown geopolitical indications for many things from the prime minister, who goes to the rally of the far right in Jerusalem and is in the friendship of Milorad Dodik there and the figures of the same "enlightenment" let's call it that and is in the next meeting, with Pedro Sanchez, who represents a completely different line. Politics, the closeness of Prime Minister Rama with the president or the desired closeness with President Trump is also noteworthy. 

Part of the money that fuels the economic boom in Albania comes from trafficking money, including international drug trafficking, where Albanian or Albanian criminal groups have a high international ranking. In these conditions, when you have it all, when you deal with everything, when you don't have any advantages, why does Albania need the European Union?

Can it live another 25 years like this, wait, because we can always go back and say Albania had destroyed institutions, we started from scratch, so we can spend another 25 years like this building a state that is developing dramatically, Albania has undoubtedly had an extraordinary economic transformation.

Hack: I don't believe that Albania can wait long, at least not Albanian society. Albania has been and will remain. People change, society changes.

Personally, for me the most important thing in the push that Albanians in Albania have to move towards the EU is not whether there will be an Albanian Prime Minister, whether there will be a veto or a vote in the Council of Ministers or whether we will have a Commissioner or where in what forum we or our politicians will appear. This is something secondary for the citizens and for me it actually does not matter. 

What is super important for citizens and for me personally is active participation as equals with Europeans, in European institutions; if we in Albania will have the same standards of food control, as they have in Europe; the same standards of justice, as they are in Europe, and the same standards of road traffic, as they are in Europe, health, education... if in Albania we will have European institutions installed, then Albania, could very well be like Switzerland, part of the European economic area, why not? Switzerland has done it, has made a decision. Norway has made a decision, which suits them, that society better, to stop here or Iceland until recently.

The other point is that, I'm saying this more for the sake of the conversation, for the sake of theoretical argumentation. On the other hand, since Albania is one hundred percent aligned with the EU's foreign and security policy, then there is no reason to stop here. , we should become members with the same rights.
But to underline the main reason why we need the EU, is that we are experiencing many difficulties in building our institutions. And it takes us a lot of time, so sometimes it falls short, as easy as possible, because again the path lies there, that the institutions, EU laws, EU rules, EU procedures, standards are applied and this also means our membership towards the EU. Albanians are looking for EU rules wherever they are.

Surroi: It's not that you don't have EU rules, for example, one rule, which I believe is shared with all EU countries, is that a politician who deals with corruption must face the rule of law. Ms. Balluku has become a synonym for Albania in European Union talks.

So, what we hear from member states in the Netherlands, France, Germany is that Albania does not comply with IBAR, it cannot move forward unless it clearly proves that some people are more vulnerable than others.

Hack: It's true, but this actually shows a certain way of how Europe handles them, the European Union handles some cases. In my assessment, I share with you 100% that idea that if you are in doubt somewhere, as a politician you should let justice do its job, have the elegance to open the way for justice and open your arms and wait until it does its job after you turn back.
But this is something personal, it's not like they have any law or any rule, any law for this matter, legally it's not prohibited. But on the other hand, from the European side, this sometimes shows the EU's focus on proper nouns.

Ok, it's very easy to understand, it's very easy to explain, it's very easy to bring to the table.

Surroi: But one of the reasons is that the parliament protects this proper noun. The Albanian Parliament, which represents the majority of the votes of the citizens of Albania, protects a person from legal proceedings.

Hack: Ok, is it right to turn the question back to Europe, on the other hand, what happens, if in the next session of... if, for example, SPAK, in this specific case, if SPAK sends a second request to the Albanian Parliament, when it requests the lifting of the immunity of the MP in question. The parliament also lifts it. Okay? Then, what, is the IBAR automatically opened?

Surroi: Illyrians?

John: I would have a lot to say on many issues, but this issue of Mrs. Balluku has become synonymous with this, because it lasted too long without a decision and in the meantime all the member states began to examine it as a case and because they, normally the EU too now, we think that enlargement is the number one priority, but Europe is facing a million and one problems, especially since we have a relationship with America, which is now contested, wars everywhere... they will not go into it too deeply, and the member states will also not go into it to study the entire Albanian or Montenegrin system, but they will study but they will study some key points and at the moment this has been pointed out, especially for the reactions that have been in Albanian society from political actors from various institutions, it has become clear even for someone who does not know the system very well, that something is happening there.

And it has been requested that some kind of responsibility be given, with what this reflects on Albanian society and what they have seen has not been up to the mark of what is expected to move forward and especially in relation to SPAK, even though initially Albania made a very good impression that this institution was created, which is dealing with corruption cases, especially high-level ones.

Surroi: And this was with the consent of the Albanian authorities. It was an international collaboration.

John: And, all that progress was made, in opening all the other chapters, classes, Now, the focus was on starting to implement the promises, on implementing all those laws that officially say we have aligned or made parallel with European laws and directly the first test was this and Albania in the eyes of the EU failed the exam. And now we can take it as right or wrong.
One might say that Montenegro is not set...

Hack: Shall we say it passed for the fall?

John: But for autumn, of course we have a lot of autumn.

Hack: Autumn, fall September, October.

Surroi: What year?

John: But in the meantime, other things have also happened in Albania, which are now raising question marks after question marks. For example, very soon or around that moment, when IBAR was said no, OPEDI came in collaboration between Prime Minister Rama and Vučić.

Surroi: With which Albania seeks to be at the same level of integration with Serbia, more or less.

John: In the EU, in Brussels, everyone was surprised because Albania was doing so well.

Surroi: Albania, which was close to Montenegro, with that OPED, wants to become close to Serbia. In terms of the level of integration, I'm not talking about...

John: The way these things are seen is that when Albania says we don't need a veto and we don't need a commissioner, it's like saying we want to enter as we are and we don't want to change. This was also seen for OPED, for OPED, we don't have the capacity to make all the reforms that are needed to enter the EU, we are making reforms up to point x and entering the "single market".

Hack: It is very important, sorry for the intrusion, it is a very important point that was never clarified in my assessment in OPED. If in OPED it had been written that we will pass all 33 chapters, we will close them and then we will wait for the decision until the Council takes it and in the meantime there is no problem about the right of veto or as for the commissioner, for me there is no problem. But if they say no, from 33 chapters only the chapters of the common market, the unique market, the "single market", nothing else, if we do not close them all then, this is problematic and here I agree 100% with you

John: The other issue that surprised the public in Brussels was why Rama is currently viewed very positively, not only by Albania, but also by Prime Minister Rama himself. When he comes to Brussels, everyone is very happy, he is an attraction.

Why should he write something with a president who is currently going through the biggest crises in his society with many challenges that it is not known how they will be overcome... and Albania was placed on the same page as Serbia and there have been hints before that Albanian society does not have a high level of democracy, so at the moment OPEDs are written, it is like putting some signatures and confirmations to these hints and I believe that it has slowed down, not maybe autumn, but January will be the next season.

Surroi: To utilize IBAR

John: To truly consider Albania as a credible element or factor in a full enlargement, in a full membership of Albania in the EU.

Surroi: I had two questions or interventions about this, I'm trying to merge them into one. If this scenario happens, that is, Albania enters in January, the year 2027 is the year that largely determines whether Montenegro will cross the Rubicon and because it's the elections or not?

In Montenegro, and if it is resolved, a sufficient political consensus is created in Montenegro, Montenegro moves one step forward, if not then there may be intervention first of all from Serbia, why not from Russia, to prevent Montenegro from moving forward. This further complicates the position not only of Montenegro, but also of Albania, yes, yes, it pushes it even further

John: First of all, I believe that the current government in Montenegro has understood the task and is doing everything, the maximum on their part, to fulfill all the requirements with the capacity they have and to control all the elements they have in the Government, so that there are no major setbacks that will hinder Montenegro's journey towards the EU.

Surroi: Despite the deep political differences that exist.

John: Of course, of course.

In the EU, there is a bit of suspicion about the pro-Russian elements within the Government, starting with the President of the Parliament, Mr. Mandić, but the fact that a kind of consensus is being achieved is seen positively, because you cannot eliminate such elements automatically or with a magic wand. 
We have a part of the population in Montenegro that is over thirty percent that considers itself Serbian, but even they, in the surveys that are conducted on support for EU membership, a large part of them, are still within the numbers that see their future within the EU and not within other political elements.

So I wouldn't see it at the moment, especially with these recent positive things on Montenegro's journey, I wouldn't see it as a risk at the moment. I'm more worried about the elections that will be held, for example, in France, because in France there is almost no talk of enlargement at all, because no political entity would tie its fate to such a labile topic as enlargement and that historically France, even when it has had strong democracy and a government that is not at all extreme right-wing, has always been the most skeptical voice about whether enlargement should happen or not.

Surroi: Plus France must ratify with three-fifths.

John: Or with a referendum. And the idea is to increase Montenegro's chances, maybe the referendum question would have Iceland and Montenegro in it so that the chances would be higher.

Surroi: Iceland's companion. 

Since we are on the subject of associations, Montenegro's membership and OPED are creating something completely different from the initial perception we talked about, that Albania has entered the Western Balkans, although it does not have the problems that other countries of the former Yugoslavia have.

But now, of its own free will, Montenegro is distancing itself from the Western Balkans, entering the European Union, while Albania, while entering the Western Balkans, is equalizing with Georgia and other countries, which also have the same intention, bring us into the European common market but don't bring us into the institutions, no problem.

John: Maybe this is a bit of an extreme view, I'd say.

The situation with Albania is not that extreme either, and the process is always in flux, there are always re-evaluations by the Commission, continuous opportunities are given, because even now we had several meetings behind closed doors, where very high-level people told us that we need Albania, because it is a country that is 100% we will not have problems with it, as they might have with Russia or maybe even with Montenegro, which has these pro-Russian factors.

Surroi: Furthermore, Albania's influence has always been benevolent towards other Albanians in the region.

So, Albania... actually to some extent... I'm talking about the part about wars and such, but to a large extent Albania has not had the role that Serbia has traditionally had, or other countries.

John: Of course, one of my criticisms of the institutions is that they have never created some kind of democratic support program for Albania, which is different from other countries of the former Yugoslavia, because they have this "Democracy Support" program, an entire unit in the European Parliament, but also in the Commission, etc. that constantly has contacts with relevant institutions and I say that it is a deficiency and that the democratization, let's say, of Albanian society and institutions has not been achieved from the real point where Albania started in the sense of vitality, or how should I say, democratic. 

We currently have the Socialist Party controlling 54 out of 61 municipalities or something like that, which when you look at these maps, is something that is very impressive, while Montenegro, for better or worse, has a kind, it has colors just like Kosovo has its colors, just like North Macedonia, for better or worse, a kind of democracy that lives and exists.

Surroi: How does this vitality, which has existed among the Albanians of Macedonia, translate into stagnation in integration? How much does it affect?

Pollozhani: In fact, when I was listening to Iliriana and Ardian in conversation, I said: How nostalgic this whole conversation is, because there was a time in Macedonia too, the way we talked about integration was like this...

Surroi: A quarter of a century ago...

Pollozhani: No, a few years ago unfortunately, so I think that Macedonia shows perhaps the dark side and what we should keep in mind even when we talk like this in a positive way, because in 2019 there was talk about Albania and Macedonia, I even remember, then in Macedonia we said: "Separate us from Albania. We are walking together, we want Albania to join too, but Albania has some problems, we don't have them, we changed the name...

Surroi: And vice versa. Prime Minister Rama has insisted several times, "don't link us to the North's motion, because there are identity problems, we don't have them," and he was absolutely right.

Pollozhani: So, in that aspect, now that Albania and Montenegro are talking, I also see this aspect that I hope will work, that at least one of the countries can join, but I also see the possibility that this will not happen.

Surroi: Which one. Not even Montenegro?

Pollozhani: Not even Montenegro, at least not for the next three years. And the reason why this is, is because if we look at it, because now in Macedonia, maybe we've been stuck for so long...

Surroi: Why not?

Pollozhani: I think that in the capitals of the European Union, the will is not as strong for accession as it is for playing the accession game and keeping these countries still with the promise of the European Union, but I think that the current climate is not necessarily one that supports them.
Montenegro is probably the easiest case, as Iliriana mentioned. There are small sacrifices that need to be made for Montenegro to become part of the European Union, but at the same time I think it is still not clear, especially when it comes to the domestic politics of each of the countries, that this will happen. 
We have also conducted interviews with MEPs about a recent project and most said Montenegro, maybe yes, but Albania I don't think so, or even Montenegro in a few years, so it is not so clear that it will happen so soon. At the same time, the European Union sometimes surprises, so we hope for a surprise.

Surroi: For example, Bulgaria and Romania were geopolitical decisions.

Pollozhani: Yes. There is hope there too.

But on the other hand, I think that at the same time, because Macedonia has been around for so long, I think that many, not just me, but many of us have started to ask a question in terms of what you asked Ardian, why the European Union?

Why should we have this as an aspiration, and do we even need it?

But when we look at the process of how the European Union and the idea of ​​the European Union has developed in the Western Balkans, the democratizing aspect of the European Union's call, I think, is one of the main aspects that we have used as academics, as members of civil society, as politicians, as various factors in society.

So the European Union is important, no matter what stage of the process, because it is still perhaps the only pro-democratization narrative we have in the region.

Here too, I think that, for example, for Macedonia, this stagnation has also led to stagnation of the democratization process to some extent.

(To be continued tomorrow)